taylor wilmot interview transcript

Josie

Hello, everyone. I just wanted to record a brief intro to this podcast. Framing of the discussion that I got to have with Taylor Wilmont.  Taylor Wilmont is a good friend of mine. We've known each other since about 2007.   📍 We actually both went to the same university together for our undergraduate degrees, the evergreen state college  her and I had some very  Kind of interesting overlap where we both  got really  heavily taken in  by more of the hard sciences at evergreen and later  shifted  📍 towards  getting more invested in the humanities and  our natural arc of actually becoming a therapist.

And so we've shared much over the years in following out our separate trainings and becoming therapists and also mediating kind of some of the tensions between having oftentimes paradox, goal divisions and thought, and often really contentious dialogue.  Evergreen attracts students from variety of different backgrounds.

And since we emphasize learning through. Multidisciplinary lenses and  connecting across diverse backgrounds. We would often intentionally have  seminar discussion groups that would get very tense at times and would  we would value putting forth    authentic expressions from.

Perspective. So it was often a very uncomfortable learning environment.  However, at the same time, it really inspired us to build. Tangible skills. I think that it probably contribute in both of our minds and becoming therapists. Cause you often are  mediating between conflict.  But I  we have a discussion here to  contextualize some of what we've learned and what we can  intentionally think about as we go into creating our own.

More non-traditional  non-hierarchical learning community that I hope to cultivate here and we  wanna put on the table some of the things that we've learned and as well as getting some of the insight that Taylor has to offer from somebody with mental health training. So we enter an educational space together, things that we can take into account  That we're about to face together.

And    we can, we've  discussed some of the benefits that we got from learning while having some potentially challenging dialogues some of our attention. So I'm excited to sh to share this conversation with you. And   📍 I think one of the things that's the most interesting about it is getting ahead.

How we can navigate what I'm sure we've all seen as a compromised discussion, engaging on social media and the online environment  where at least I found that it's really tempting to fall into that classic cycle of the victim perpetuator. Rescuer triangle or tendencies to scapegoat  different members of the community.

And we want, I guess that's something to have always on your mind to see if that's playing out in the educational community. That you're a part of. If it's playing out in the lens of analysis that's coming through and how we can maybe look at that even without being too judgemental of it happening, I really appreciated.

In this dialogue, because I think really connecting with folks with different mental health training and that have had to  work collaboratively with diverse perspectives. We can just gain so much  from being open to what  has what people have learned from this. So I really love this conversation and I hope it gives us some food for thought, as we go into building a learning community together.

Some of the paradoxes that come up in trying to facilitate a safe space for everyone. And I, the only thing I can know for sure is that I do want their for space for everyone to feel like they can be a valued member at the table. And that really means accommodating different and that my friends is not an easy thing to do.

And I really commend you for showing up and trying and possibly joining us. To aspire to make that happen, even in a very small way. I hope you really enjoyed this discussion.

Josie:

I'm so grateful. That a good friend of mine, Taylor Wilmont. I was open to join this module. Where we're really going over. Kind ahead of time. How we can be intentional about showing up in this educational community that we're building together. And also navigating the nuances that we're entering this educational community. Both as like first and foremost, as like human beings as our own, you know, we'll learn about what it means to see ourselves as. Occupational beings. We're also entering this space as therapists. With past, you know, roles, responsibilities. You know, we talked about, we're bringing all of our roles into this space. And this is intentionally an educational community that we're experiencing together where we're all. Therapists and those lines can easily get blurred. Mm-hmm. And, you know, as we're looking at occupational science as a lens, this is gonna be a theme lines. Get. Blurred mm-hmm and. Some of the I'm I'm excited for a therapist to introduce herself. As another fellow therapist from a different. Context and how we know each other. I might get ahead of this, I guess a little bit is that we. Both went through our undergraduate. Experiences together and, and went off to become. Therapists through different fields and different lines. And we went to an intentionally. Interdisciplinary college that also looked at what does it mean? To mindfully start blending lines. And an effort to better underst. Understand the world, our place in it. And how we utilize our educational and intellectual products. To sort of benefit the external world and the physical world in a really meaningful way. That was a lot of the questions that we navigated in our undergraduate experience. As part of an educational community. And I would say probably Taylor and I both took a lot. Of that calling and interest into figuring out, well, how do we use this information in our intellect and what we're exploring educationally. To also benefit. How we sign up as therapists and how we wanna show up as therapists in this world. So. Part of the intention is to bring this conversation to you. And we just went through presentation about the difficult emotions that necessarily come up as we go into an educational. Environment that is really, you know, personally seeking out experiences that can challenge our worldview. Mm-hmm. So I wanna invite Taylor to introduce herself and also know that she's entering this space with a different discipline and, and having a, an warranty orientation for mental health. So I just, just wanna have this dialogue where we're already modeling interdisciplinary dialogue and what we can bring and learn from each other from entering these spaces from different backgrounds. So thank you for that long semi introduction, but Taylor, do you mind giving them some background? About how you're entering this conversation.

Taylor:

And. Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to. Thanks Josie. So I went to college with Josie and like she said, we went to. An inter interdisciplinary. College and. We connected in. Sciences and also multicultural counseling. And so I continued my track in the direction of multicultural counseling by going to. California Institute of integral studies and completing the integral counseling psychology program there. And now I am working towards my licensure. As a marriage and family therapist in California. And specializing in psychedelic assisted therapy. Specifically working with ketamine. So it's, it's quite different than occupational therapy, but we've been able to connect. And look at some of the similarities in our fields and also some of the differences. And also just bringing different perspectives. And, and working off of that.

Josie

And it's of occupational sciences also. Acknowledging that just about. Any effort, that's looking to understand human beings or work with human beings. That it's really best to do that from a multidisciplinary and collaborative partnerships. Mm-hmm so there's how we're similar, how we're different, but also how can we partner, how we can collaborate and how can we see. See how you're working with occupational beings from a different perspective and different mindset and how are we, you know, really working together to support the inclusion, the wellbeing, the empowerment. Of diverse humans and even non-humans, I'm gonna be an advocate for that across the course. So we really wanna Mar model being, building respectful. Partnerships around learning, cuz it, I think one of the things I wonder in your studies too, Have you been surprised by just how much isn't. Completely known about these subjects that maybe have been studied for, for decades now?

Taylor

Absolutely. And that's something that. Is an ongoing conversation in the psychedelic space. The question of. Like how to create these new protocols that have never been. Really mastered before. And are we missing anything? No, what's gonna hate in the future. And that, you know, that even there, that

Josie

sounds like fodder for some potentially like controversial and like transformative learning experiences. Where, you know, working with new. Modalities can almost like be a paradigm shift and breaking down some of those barriers. And I'm. So I thought that we would kind of. Part of is one of, one of the things we're working with is what does it mean to enter an educational community? Where we know that tough emotions are gonna be a part of it. And how do we learn together? Mm-hmm. Knowing that each of us is gonna be on a different stage. Of growth and what it means to. Enter an educational community and kind of more of a non-hierarchical. Space cause part of the goal of this is we can create. Maybe some space and this educational experience. Where the students entering it, have a little bit more flexibility to play with these concepts to. Have fun with a, with a little bit less pressure. Mm-hmm and. It can be tough because as we bring up some of these challenging concepts that could really challenge our worldview. Sometimes it's like a lot of us as humans will actually get more rigid about, you know, That force of denial we'd wanna shut things out. Yep. Yep. Or we wanna escape from the situation. Mm-hmm. And how different people show up and play kind of just like when kids play, if someone shows up a little bit intense or a little bit powerful, Mm-hmm, it can kind of make the experience more uncomfortable for the other person that maybe wants to play and a, and a quiet and more contemplative. Way mm-hmm. And so I guess I just want this to be an open question. Between kind of what maybe we've learned now, having. Because I, how would you characterize, like thinking back and reflecting on evergreen, which. That's the undergrad institution. We went to that really focused on interdisciplinary learning. And learning through. Dialogue. That was not our hierarchical. So we never had like a professor at the head of the classroom telling us this is how it is. Or a textbook that sort of outlined, this is the one proper worldview. Would you say that some of that, like non-structured learning environment, there are times where maybe it was really fun and empowering and other times where it was kind of like painful. And difficult. Do you wanna speak a little bit about like your experience?

Taylor:

With that. Yeah. I mean, it's all kind of coming back to me right now and. You know, I think something that came up. Was that. Depending on. Who was facilitating. The group made a big difference in terms of how many people were able to feel affirmed in what they were bringing into the group. And I think when the facilitators would be more drawn to one or two or maybe a small group, smaller group in the seminar, it creates an, a real. Dynamic where there's a hierarchy of who's. Being more respected in terms of what they're bringing in compared to the others. And it doesn't really create a safe. Environment for the people who are still kind of wrestling and thinking. And want more space to come up with their own ideas.

Josie

Yeah. So that's kinda, that's sort of a theme. I can see that's happening in the occupational. Science world. And I think it's broader than occupational science world when we're talking about what it means to. Decolonize some of our educational. Spaces where there really has been a tendency. Towards hierarchies of what types of. Knowledge or what types of backgrounds. Are sort of socially giving status on a tier or a hierarchy. And that we've kind of been noticing that that can be. Kind of a, a, an approach that's actually. Counterproductive. Yeah. To taking a new information. And synthesizing. And like, I think one that we're kind of coming off of as a culture is where. We have really put on a pedestal. Biomechanical reduction. Very like. Linear modes of scientific reasoning. I think we're starting to critique where some of that. Paradigm being put above other modes of learning. Has resulted in some. Systems that aren't at least aren't serving in diversity. Of different human beings. mm-hmm or something. How have you found in your. Educational experience. How, how is it navigating in kind of the, the mental health world, sort of the pendulum swing between these different worldviews? Maybe one that's more. Reduct initiative is mechan scientific and physical versus one. That's more subjective. Qualitative. Right.

Taylor

I appreciate that question because. It is. It is interesting in my experience. Working in sci in, in. Towards my science credits. The seminars sort of took a more. Debate approach where like somebody has to be right. And somebody has to be wrong. Which I mean, if there is a right or wrong answer, That's an interesting, I mean, it's like, you kind of wonder why are you doing a seminar if there's a right way or a wrong way. if it's not a discussion, So I always was sort of confused by. That process. And in my experience in the mental health world, There's more focus on creating, understanding. Between people. So everybody has a different perspective and it's all welcome. And also let's just. Explore that like, what's it like to have, be in a room with people who have totally different perspective than you do? I think it can be sort of a, a good,

Josie

like, almost like a red flag. And I can always sort of feel that in my body mm-hmm and I know that I have had times. Where the background that I'm bringing to the space is maybe like one that is considered like given a lot of status in that situation. And I can feel really good to have. That sense of finally obtaining that. And I think that's something actually that. I wouldn't be surprised is something that like a lot of occupational therapists might be craving because it feels like sometimes there's that, that stigma. To being more of a feeling. Feely, I wanna say like a mushy gushy field and in the mental health it's often. So. De devalued in our current us health system. That it feels like, oh, it would be so validating and nourishing to sort of be the one on top for a little bit. Yeah. And at the same time, I think that that's almost something we have to be on guard. Of because whenever we have a system where. One particular perspective is now quote unquote, the one on top, right. Means that there's something on the bottom. Right. And that really goes counter to an intentionally. Cultivating a, a diverse. Learning community or a diverse healing community and things like that. Do you think that we need to be mindful? Of that urge. To sometimes seek. That I almost feel like it is validation in some way.

Taylor

 Mm-hmm yeah, I think. I think mindfulness is always. Useful and I, what I've noticed. In my experience in science courses is that. It just felt like people were really rushing to get their point across. And I'm not sure. I saw a lot of mindfulness. And it's not surprising. I mean, if it, if you're not in a space where mindfulness is a value, a value. Or valued then why would you care about that stuff? But I think anytime you can slow down any type of process. The more, you can engage more people and actually bring people closer together rather than having people repel from each other, which I've seen that happen in debate context a lot, you know? Yeah. Everybody hates each other at the end. Is that something that we wanna do?

Josie

And I think that's a, one of my intentions in cultivating this learning community. Is I, I think I want to engage, create a space where we can engage information where it's not too. Serious, almost that that debate is kind of, it feels like this life-or-death mistake situation we need to, and I, I don't wanna undersell that. We're not. Doing that work. As, as therapists in a, in our day to day lives, we are very often taking on very serious. Subjects. And I don't wanna meet demean that sometimes in the systems that we're working in. It, we, we need to show up with a good debate case or we have to work in these imperfect systems, but that's sort of one of those interplays where I'm hoping to create this space is being an educational context rather than a professional one. Or a therapeutic one. Where it's not as high stakes, serious that we're coming into this. Playful environment and that's sort of. It, because that can be one of those red flags that the environment and the educational environment is maybe getting. The the, the space is sort of breaking down a little bit. And maybe that's just something to get curious about, because I think that this is also going to happen because this is sort of how, if we are. Getting triggered by new information it's coming through. It is likely that some of these communication patterns are gonna come to four. I think we've all seen that actually as therapists, that just at the point where someone's really. About to go through and, and the major growth cycle, that's almost where we get the most resistance and continu information and stuff too. So I think it's important to know. That that's just gonna happen in this space, even though we're intending to create, you know, maybe ground for something different. Mm-hmm. But maybe that's just something to get curious about when we find that we're debating a little bit more mm-hmm or if it feels like they're really needs to be a right or wrong answer, or maybe that's somebody else is sharing something from a different background and different perspective, and it's starting to make us angry. right. Like. That's not

supposed to happen. That's not the way it's supposed to work.

That's something to sort of pay attention to. Right.

Taylor

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think. Something that's been really amazing to learn about in my field is this is the autonomic nervous system and the stress response cycle. And anytime you have people getting really angry and wanting to fight that's in my therapist, mind, I'm thinking, okay, they're in hyper arousal state, they're in fight or flight. How do we get them into the window of tolerance? Because it's very hard to have a discussion when you're not in the window of tolerance.

Josie

Right. So, so I wonder. Yeah. How, what are some strategies? Do you think that we can be. Aware of, as we take on some of these, like, Challenging topics, cuz I, I want their. In my wish, I would love for there to be some grace. You know, if we show up kind of messy to this space, and sometimes we might get triggered and we might be in a hyper arousal state. I my sense is that a lot of the educational systems that we've been in that are very. Form formal, very like compliance heavy. It can almost. Get the sense of uhoh. If I accidentally out myself as an emotional person, or if I show a state of hyper arousal, I'm bad. I'm awful. I'm unsafe thing that mm-hmm you figure it out. Mm-hmm yeah.. Mm-hmm

Taylor

I think if, you know, Sorry.

I didn't mean to talk over. I think it's a really important question. And. You know, What I'm hoping for is that. We can provide more information for people in the first place about this issue. Cuz I I've been talking to a lot of clients and other people about the stress. Response cycle and the autonomic nervous system. And a lot of people are like surprised. They've never heard of the word window of tolerance before. And as soon as you understand. This mechanism, it's much easier to be aware of it without judging it. Cause most of the time we also create a story about. Why we are the way we are in a moment. Which might not be fully true, you know, or fully accurate to a. Other aspects that were, we might not be fully aware of. So. If you are going into hyper arousal state and you're able to just be like, oh, that's what I'm doing. That's what's going on. I'm stressed out. I'm worried about something. That is the, the bridge. To what do I need to do now? Does that mean I have to leave the room? Does that mean I have to breathe? Do I need to take a break? All these other things?

So, yes, I, I, I'm curious too, like, and I think this is something that I feel like there's grounds to keep getting better at and to learn from, because I think it's normal. If we get into a hyper arousal state, we almost like lose consciousness to the world. Around us. And I mean, it is true. Like we have that in occupational therapy too, where we talk about flipping the lid and that we're often. In a way we're not in a state to take in much new information or new perspective. If we're in what we call like the. The zones of regulation, it's called the, the. Almost the yellow through red zone, the yellow, orange and red zone. Yep. That can be a hard time to engage in new learning because our, like our upper frontal cortex IST as activated and we can be really easily triggered. And that's a, actually the like a sign too though, like, oh, I need a. Drink some water. I need to move. I need to have these things. And after we sort of can like soothe in relation to what practices can bring us back to that. Mm-hmm state where we're a little bit more lucid and more practice. Like that's obviously a much more, it's a, it's a very enjoyable experience to learn from that state. And it can be a much more fun state to play in. As we've noticed as like therapists at the same time, I wanna be cautious of not shaming. Yeah. Going into those different states. Yeah, cuz it shouldn't be that you're just not allowed to show up. I mean, if we create something where it's like, oh, only if you're in the green zone, mm-hmm. Can you be allowed to contribute in some way, or we somehow then, you know, privilege or put on a pedestal, those who can sort of express themselves. Rationally or in like a civilized way. And we were kind of falling into that temptation too.

Taylor

Mm-hmm. I love that. And, you know, The first thing that comes to mind, Josie, as you talk about wanting to make sure we're not prioritizing people who are in the window of tolerance over people who might find themselves hyper arou or even hypo arou. Routes is I think something in the therapy community that I'm familiar with is group norms. Like. Making agreements in the beginning of the process. What are we gonna do if somebody's in the, these states? Like, how can we help.

Josie

That's sort of, I, I have to be honest that in this program, That's kind of gonna be an open question that we have to navigate together, cuz this is a kind of an experiment of putting an online asynchronous. Experience, that's gonna maybe cover some content that really could inspire some of those. Red zone emotions and those transform like those. You know things and I guess what I'm leaning towards. Is maximizing the amount of choice that you have yes. In engaging in the content. And that I'm just gonna reinforce a lot of different, diverse ways of showing up. And maybe just being transparent. That there are gonna be limits to how much, cause I, I don't really wanna control how people show up in this space because that's part of what we have to learn from. Right. We try to create a very. Like, I think there's some forms of creating a safe space where it's like very well controlled and very tightly, like, you know exactly what's going to expect. That could be some people's definition of a safe space, right. Is really knowing ahead. It's time. How everything is gonna unfold and what is and is not okay. Mm-hmm and I just have to be transparent that part of where I'm wanting to create a safe space for diverse perspectives and different people to play and learn. Is, we're not really gonna know ahead of time exactly how everyone's gonna show up and who's gonna, so there's almost a level of some personal responsibility that I wanna impart without hopefully being individualizing this and saying, oh, this is your well, is that. Want you to part of play at the playground? Here too, is making sure that you're encouraged to connect with other supports and diversify the supports that you're seeking to help you. Be in a place that's readiness to learn and participate in some of these experiences.

Taylor

Yeah, I think, I think what you're  saying is that, you know, you're in a way. You're trying to prepare to create those limitations and preparations. Like information to prepare people.

Josie

Going in to what they can come to expect so that we can't really fully offer that experience. Yet. So I wanna be kind of maybe hopefully have some informed consent that we're sort of gonna discover some of this together and hopefully have an openness to learn from each other. Mm-hmm. Where we really do wanna create, I think, a safe space for some emotional expression. Mm-hmm but maybe note that if you're a learner that really does, it can be very, like put you out of that zone of tolerance. If somebody else is also going through a difficult time or is being really trans. Transparent with how they're showing up emotionally. Mm-hmm want you to feel that you have, you know, Like you have grace, you don't have to participate in this. Right. But I think we very much wanna create something where we're not. Controlling how others are expressing and how they're showing up. Mm-hmm. And noting to the difference between emotions expressing in a space and information in a space mm-hmm cause sometimes there's just information that's really difficult to hear and it can really inspire an emotional reaction. And I think we come from a culture that. So pathologizes having an emotional experience that we want encourages repression of emotional reactions. That sometimes the information can seem like it's an insult somehow, or it's the thing that hurt you mm-hmm or that another person's emotional reaction. If it caused you an emotional reaction, it can be almost easy to interpret that as an insult. Somehow or something that was violent. When really it's just the expression of information or the expression of emotion. Mm-hmm, it's not necessarily something. That is an act of violence. Necessarily.

Taylor

Yeah. Yeah. What you're saying. Oh, so sorry, just saying that I was taking in what you're saying, and I'm curious what your question was as well.

Josie

Well, I'm curious too. Do you have, has anything come up in some of the educational environments that you've been a part of or in the therapeutic mental health about. How, how can we. Be present to win. Something's an emotion. That's not a hurtful thing. Or in response to that, are there any tools that you've gained or is that a conversation that's also come up in the mental health world on how we. Can appreciate emotions and information almost separate from. That I, I guess I'm curious your thoughts around that and what you could offer building skills like that.

Taylor

Yeah, I, I think it's, it's something that comes up quite often. Something that I've been aware of is. In the spaces that I've done learning and for my psychology group degree, there's an emphasis on. On acceptance. Not necessarily in terms of. It's like around not, not judging your emotional experience. Not suggesting that it's, it feels good. But to accept that this is the way I feel. And to not make, try to not make a big story about it. And to try to just be with what the emotion is. And the other one that I would say is. Intention versus impact. And exploring what that means to different people.

Josie

Can you elucidate that a little bit for. You know, I'm not sure if I actually have a solid understanding of it. Of those that maybe haven't heard of it before, too.

Taylor

Right. So it's something that is usually discussed in the beginning of classes that I've been a part of where. The professor will make space to discuss like, How just because somebody doesn't intend to. Be to create discomfort for somebody else or be hurtful or whatever. It doesn't mean that the impact. Doesn't happen. And so making space for somebody who feels impacted a certain way. Without jumping to the conclusion that that person intended to do something that was kind of on both sides.

Josie

Cuz I think we've all probably been in situation where we've made an expression and it's had. An impact that was less than desirable. That's part of what my intention with this is to be transparent, that it's like you might have those experiences. Interacting this information, it might have an impact. That's not pleasant at first. And so. Knowing that it's not the intention, but it probably can happen that we're gonna have. UN uncomfortable experiences as we engage in potentially challenging. And at times divisive topics. And I think as community members, I think it's, it's important to be aware. In how folks can be hurt or what. States can cause folks to not feel welcome. In a space. And so if we can. If we can think about how we show up and learning to maximize those feeling welcome. But I, I have a feeling that it's not an easy answer to that question, right. Because. It there's a paradox there too, because I think to like, we we've faced this, I think as occupational therapists in the realm of like sensory. Sensitivities mm-hmm and sensory differences. Mm-hmm so some people need a lot of. Input. They need a lot of sensory information. I'm one of those people I need to, I have. Kind of a lot of visual input on my walls and different information. I need a lot of stimulation to be in that readiness. Mm-hmm others need. Like pure minimalism and low. Volume and they need, you know, And to accommodate both of those learners in the same space at one time. You know, for somebody that noise. Is violent to their body and painful. Versus me as an auditory learner that I need that to be saturated. It's kind of, it's almost a, an impossible. Question. To have.

Taylor

Yeah. Absolutely. And I think. The, the thing that I wanna add about this is. You can be as intentional as possible and every now and then there's still gonna be a rupture. And maybe it's helpful to think about, well, how are we gonna manage a rupture if it comes up? Great. So having more of an attitude. Towards like repair and humili.

Josie

Humility rather than perfection. Right? Cause I think even sometimes with trying to make. Accountable spaces, which, you know, I get it. I used to work in school-based therapy. So we have this idea of like IEP is our legal documents. We gotta get this right. We gotta get this perfect. And if you don't accommodate this, you're breaking the law and that's where we get in those life or deaths serious. Situations. And often as we're like building a new learning community together where things aren't as well established and trying to have that spirit of play, there's kind of this awareness that we're gonna kind of learn from the mistakes that we make. Mm-hmm and they're almost, isn't such a thing.

 It's this preci sort of. Constitution of everybody doing things kind of right or wrong. Yeah, we almost need to be responsive and learn from each other because really like who's, you know, who sensory

needs are more important. The auditory. You know, saturation person or the one that needs minimal auditory impact, you know, they're both experiencing. Something that's compromising their ability to access. Participate. We really have to find ways. To mediate and accommodate both people. They're both, you know, occupational beings that have human rights that deserve those things. So we have things to learn from each other. Mm-hmm I think that's.

Taylor

I, I love that like way of putting it because. I, I can just appreciate. The effort, you know, you're putting in. And others have put in to. To be as inclusive as possible. Cause it's it's again, we all need to put that after it in right too. I

Josie

think that's one of the problems. In, in a way in some of the traditional learning environments too, is. Are like in the United States where we do appeal towards higher authority. To mediate conflicts and to. Facilitate community is we look to. Well, who's the professor and who's the teacher and who's the person who's responsibility. This is, and really to make a truly inclusive. Society living environment, community that we live in. That's really gonna take effort from all of us. That are open to get a little bit uncomfortable by understanding. How our communities are impacted. By how we show up in the diverse forms that we naturally show up as humans. I think we need to shift the paradigm a little bit. And noting that this isn't just the professor's responsibility. Or the government's responsibility or the media's responsibility in that circles back to also a point that I wanted to have with you too, about. Scapegoating. Yeah, that can come up. Mm-hmm.

In a lot of dialogue with things. I curious as a. Somebody that's trained in mental health things. Could, did you, could you give a working definition of what that's kind of like. Yeah, like scapegoating, in

Taylor

my opinion, is. When either one person or a group of people. Focuses on many of the negative attributes of another person at the expense of some of their positive attributes. And from what.

Josie

I've taken in about it or like how I've made some meaning of it. Is that whenever. It goes from, we have this shared problem. That we're all facing. If all of that sense of like, something's not going right. Mm-hmm, if you can. Kind of almost zero, make that a really intense thing and then put it on a, as like a target. On a specific groups. Belief systems things back. And then you can say, oh, I know

what the problem is. Right? The existence of this. Thing. Right. And it almost seems to be a tendency of just actually avoiding the problem. Right. Rather than facing it as a community and taking in.

How really usually if a problem exists in a system, There's like multiple causal factors in links. That everyone has invested in divested in that needs to be part of a solution. So I, that is something that I wanted to. Say that that's a good sign of a, of a educational environment. Not really being a healthy one or not a good environment of play. If there's a sense of scapegoating, that's starting to come up. Mm-hmm it seems to be like that's a time where we might be avoiding yes. Some really important questions and maybe even avoiding our own responsibility. Right. Including a solution.

Taylor

 Absolutely. I, I think that that's. Absolutely accurate and. I think one thing that I wanted to. Really point out about what you're saying is the tendency towards generalization. And how that really can lead anyone at any group in the direction of scapegoating, something with someone.

Josie

I, I think I saw that a lot at evergreen. Where it would be kind of choosing. Who could be. The target of. You know, what's a good example. Like, oh, it's the. I don't know. Well, for example, we would maybe talk about, I, I remember one. Seminar conversation focusing a lot on like the, the. Impacts of tourism and sort of like, oh, Well, this is all the, the tourists that are doing this and this situation. And it sort of like if we can zone out and have a broader view of how sort of these systems. Perpetuate in a. Often problems. They, they have. It takes two to tango. Like there's a dialectic in this and we all have sort of our role. Too of. Okay. Well, if we're looking at the harms of international tourism, Mm-hmm what sort

of different choices can all the different stakeholders be making to have this be a better experience? Because like, right, like for example, the lens of tourism, you, you have maybe a lot of the in, in indigenous community to be that really wanting to attract tourism. Because it's part of how they're economically sustaining mm-hmm and yes, it's causing harm to the community, the formats that it's having in, but maybe that's part of the agency of the small businesses that are run by indigenous populations. Are are cultivating it in such a way that it's actually empowering for them. A, and that's a big question, but if we're only looking at, oh, the individual tourists themselves. Mm-hmm we may not fully be taking on a really mindful perspective of the full. Problem or the different opportunities for solution. I don't know if that's the best example, but.

Taylor

I think that's a fine example. I think you're pointing out that. That how in scapegoating circumstances that blind spot can get. Developed, and that can lead to a whole host of problems. If you're trying to create an educational environment, cuz then what are we learning if we're missing out on some really valuable and important information?

Josie

And I think scientifically too, it's not the best way to enter, you know, a state of inquiry too, because you, you almost wanna have. Especially in that initial stage of the observation, you don't want your data set too skewed from the start. Right. Will like limit what sort of questions and options are on the table in terms of who the different collaborators can be. Mm-hmm. And then one of the other things that I wanted to get your perspective. On too, in. Is one of the things I've heard about a lot is the victim. Perpetrator savior. Triangle mm-hmm. Is that something that's come up in your past? Studies and conversations.

Taylor

 Yeah, it's got. I've heard people refer to this. Dynamic in many different ways. But my, one of my current mentors talks about the top dog underdog. And I think it's kind of the same, same idea. One person feels emboldened to take a approach where they're. Above another or a group that they might have. More information or maybe more knowhow, more wisdom. It can even come out in age, like if somebody's older, then another. Person in the group or people in the group. And they might think that they know more about life. And then the people who are. Younger or in the underdog category. There, they can also play into it where they reenact that they. Are maybe helpless or that they don't have the information. It's kind, it's called under-functioning in some circles. So mm-hmm,, it's, it's like, it's kind of the similar. Idea of. Around attraction and. How in terms of balance. In, in, in groups. People feel sort of. Almost seduced the take aside, and then they play out that side. Even if it's not really helping them or the group maybe be a familiar role.

Josie

That's great. Maybe that's a good example of this transformational thing of reflecting on some of the roles that we've played in, you know, past. Educational environments. And that's where really like, thing is like, Having some space to maybe try out different roles. Mm-hmm in different things, which I've heard that too, even in playing on. Some folks will have a really great experience. And if say they classically been in a system where they've been in a more submissive role mm-hmm that you can almost role play. In more of a dominant role. And as long as it's like a consensual process that everybody's sort of aware of, then that can be like a healthy, playful growth process. Or something too, which is why it's like, I wanna create some space where this might be messy because you might wanna try out learning in different ways and breaking out some of these rigid roles. But it seems like this, this triangle thing that I've heard about, and that's a great way of framing it is that there can be. A really strong compulsion. Mm-hmm in some groups. And to me it links to that idea of scapegoating, cuz there's usually a problem mm-hmm and we have a victim here and we have, you know, we need to bring in the right saved and we have, you know, somebody that's the problem. Right. And if that's sort of driving.

The space. I feel like this is constantly what's playing out, like on social media and Twitter and things like that is there's usually someone that's been wronged. And then there is the saviors that are coming in with the right corrective action. And there's obviously a villain. That initiated it. And it's a really comfortable. Role system to play, but it maybe doesn't. Get us all moving forward. Into new ways of. Relating and creating community. It's something that it seems like a lot of people have felt. It's once you play those roles, it's often not serving everyone. that's involved in it.

Taylor

Mm-hmm. Most definitely. And when you were talking about. About the, the systemic aspect of this triangle. It actually made me think about something. One of my mentors was talking about to me around subgroups. And so she actually is a prison psychologist. And she works with groups in a subgrouping systemic way. So what she does is. She follows what the, she would call it, maybe like the top group. Is focused on and usually they will always take the lead. Cuz they feel more, more comfortable in the group. There's a lot of different reasons why the, the main group is gonna take the lead. And then the more quiet people she would call the subgroup. And so she always, she always, for the sake of balance will call out the subgroup. What is the subgroup think? Hello? Tell me subgroup and that actually give invites the people who've taken an underdog. Role to take a different role. Yeah. Okay.

Josie

So maybe that's a good context of maybe acknowledging that we, we probably will go into this tendency cuz it's a, it is a strong tendency and I, you know, will hopefully talk in my occupational profile. You know, being in acculturated as. A Midwestern Caucasian female. In a Christianized context, I take so strongly to being a white savior like that is such a strong propulsion and drive in a way that I feel a lot of cultural validation often. And so it's one of those things where, oh, okay. I'm just gonna know ahead of time. get a likely play this role. But maybe we can experiment and adopting a different perspective and see what it's like to take on the different role in that or something. And as long as you know, that it's play. Yeah, you're not as serious. It might be an interesting way to expand. And change and morph and evolve. That triangle. Cause we might not be able to fully reject that triangle and fully get rid of it. It's probably part of us. Yes, how can we play with it maybe in different ways? So that it has maybe different results as scientists, right? Where experimenting.

Taylor

Yeah. I love that idea. It actually takes me back to some drama therapy. Groups that I've been a part of. Where we do a lot of different things to kind of scramble people into. Different roles or perspectives that they're not. Immediately going towards, so like one way to do that would be doubling. So you actually have one person. Find somebody in the group to be their double. And so whether that person agrees with the person or not, they just. They experience, they follow that person and see what it's like. And then they can give feedback to that person and then that person can give feedback to them. And then there can be switching and you can try to be the double or. Have somebody double you. It's there's a lot of interesting things you can do and play and experimentation groups. I think that's, that's such

a great. Like a strategy and it's kind of showing how these lines blend, like some of what we're discovering. In therapy. Well, what happens if we try that out in educational environment that like, and I wanna be like, clear, like, yeah, this is an intentionally therapeutic space. But you know, us as, you know, model of us that have maybe backgrounds in school based occupational therapy, that's a good example of where, Hey, we are mediating a therapeutic experience in an educational environment. Mm-hmm. So while this is an explicitly the and necessary, but we're playing a around with what it can look like to. Adopt different perspectives to have different outcomes.

Josie

What you're saying there, it, it lends really well to some of the current developments and occupational sciences, which is like, how do we develop method? Methodologies mm-hmm of getting. Embodied appreciation of the nuances of subjective experience. To, to answer some of those questions scientifically. They're looking at doing like formalizing what you're saying as a part of actual. Study and investigation. Is, you know, we're used to using interviews for example. But there's limitations to interviews. Don't give you a full understanding of the embodied experience of somebody else. Mm-hmm. So we're kinda formalizing like what it means to understand a different community, a different culture. And, you know, I like, even just right now, I got, oh, trigger, you can go wrong, cuz like you wanna be careful and how much you mimic another culture, perspective or community and how do you do that respectfully? Right. So, and with consent. So I think that these necessarily are gonna be very tricky. Questions that we just need to be in dialogue about right. Yeah.

Taylor

 Yeah. I think, and even if you don't fully. Follow through the experiment. I think the dialogue about what if is so powerful as well?

Josie

Like, and maybe too, maybe this is a blessing of this triangle too, is if it, if we know that this is like something that comes back to in our culture and it's something to be aware of, even conceiving it of like, okay, right now I'm playing the role of the perpetuate. Like right now I'm. The enemy. Right. But maybe separating also your humanity from these roles and knowing that. You as a human being, as something are more than. How if part of feeling. Unsafe in a space is that you've been kind of typecast and do a specific type of role. Or thing. I think it's important for us to also look through. The fact that humans are plastic, that we are evolvable that we have these generalized capacities to know that just because you're in a place that put you in that role, mm-hmm to work really hard that you don't fix yourself in that role, that you can keep imagining new. Possibilities mm-hmm for yourself. And that even if you're not finding support, like, I don't think that this environment I build is gonna be supportive to everyone. Right. But I would hope that everybody that enters it. Has permission to seek out what is supportive and to feel that they are. Being encouraged in their own adult learning. Yes. That they.

Deserve a supportive inclusive.

Environment and that we're gonna support finding that somewhere that you can get the meaning. From there.

Taylor

I, I think that's really. Really valuable in what you're saying about. You know what it takes to even create something like this and the downfalls that could possibly come up and also. The, the positive elements. That could come out of it as well. It could be, and, you know,

Josie

We're just in a social. Situation where navigating multiple levels of global crises. So I think we have to all give each other some grace yeah. And be open to learn. And. Different measure and know that it's gonna be painful to take on some of these questions. Mm-hmm what. Do, do you have any other things that feel that come to mind that you would. Wish like from a therapist's perspective. For how. Folks that are going through a little bit of a crisis. Like. How can they support themselves? What. Mindset to have in going into a potentially challenging learning environment or challenging topics. Yeah. It's, it's not an easy question.

Taylor

It's something actually I've been wrestling with, with a couple people this week. But I think. You know, Finding sources of agency is, is so important, you know? You know, if, if you're gonna be very, if you know that you're more sensitive. Maybe finding a group where, you know, it's gonna be okay to just, you know, remove yourself from time to time and take care of yourself. Or even, you know, seeing if there's maybe short term groups so that you can kind of get a taste and then, you know, Come away from it and, you know, kind of. Digest. And then see if you wanna go back to a new one. Flexibility, I think is really important.

Josie

One of the last things too, and feel free to add in if there's anything that you can think of from that last question, too. Is the nuance of intersectionality and how, you know, some of these challenging topics like. Colonialism imperialism, systemic harm racism, oppression. It's actually gonna hit people in a different ways and it's normal. For different communities to maybe diff new, different supports around. Those questions and. I just wonder if you have any. Insight in that I know that I don't wanna be presumptuous, but I know that we did have some demographic imbalances at the evergreen green state college. Oh yeah. Not necessarily. And I feel like that probably put you. In sometimes some uncomfortable experiences or like, Do you have any like wisdom to share in cultivating an intentional learning community of how to. Acknowledge the intersections of like demographic changes in different cultural contexts. Like. And, and also in relation to your, to your background in studying multicultural counseling and education, in that regard, is there some wisdom that we can, be more aware of at least going into this project?

Taylor

I, I appreciate that question. It's it's just something that I, I continue to chew on. So I don't have a. A complete thought, but it might some things that come to mind are. For people who come from like marginalized spaces. I think it's really important to be kind to yourself and really understand, like, what is your limit? And. If you're like, if you're finding yourself like more triggered by. Like a person who's from more of a majority. Space then take it easy. There's no need to like push yourself into something that you think you're gonna feel harmed in. And also for people who come from a more majority space and they're coming in and they wanna be sensitive to people. I think curiosity is like the most important thing, but like, You know, humble curiosity, like, you know, I, I don't humility.

Josie

Right, right. Cause I, I will say that I've heard in the culture through this. Sometimes curiosity can be. Something that will feel. Demeaning like asking certain questions, like where are you from? Or. Those things.

Taylor

Yeah, I, I think that's important. So yeah, like. I I, one example is I remember witnessing. A person talking to. An immigrant from China and she was from Texas. She was trying to be nice. But she was asking her questions about food in a way that just had this like tone to it. Of like, Like entitlement. And so I think like if you're gonna be curious, Try to find ways where you can. Maybe offer an open ended. Statement where the person can offer what they want to, but not feel like pigeonholed into like actually answering a question like. More like, I'm really curious about these aspects of this culture. Do you wanna talk about it? No. Okay. Thank you.

Josie

One of the things. That I guess has been helpful to me lately. And maybe get your reaction to, and I'm hoping inviting another interview. To play this out is. Is being somebody that comes from small town, middle America. Midwest acculturation, and also acknowledging too, some of the parts of. If you are part of a culture that. Really shelters, your perspectives and limits and really shapes. How different parts of the world are framed. Mm-hmm wanna acknowledge that. That is also, I think to me, a sign of when there's been an occupational imbalance and sort of some systemic and job injustice that has. Kind of limited our ability to connect with other humans and to interact with information in a different way. So I wanna be an ambassador to help hopefully break down some of that, but what's been helpful to me is sometimes in. We. Because the white culture is presumed to be the dominant. Def out and neutral. Mm-hmm. It's common for a lot of people that are socialized from Caucasian lineages. To sort of. Avoid the question right. Of what white culture is and what Caucasian lineage look comes from, or the sense of not having a culture. Which in a way can be very depriving to just human beings in general. That benefit from, from culture, expression, connection, and community, and invalidating that. As a white person, it's not that you don't have a culture and that you don't have a rich. Complex tapestry of experiences. I would say in my. Openness to this question I found. Really interesting corollaries between. Intergenerational trauma and diversity. In my family systems and down those lines. And I think if you can get in touch with that as a, a white person too, or somebody from these more dominant culturals talk positions. Of allowing you to reflect and get to the inquiry. I think it becomes easier. Yeah. To then.

Understand how you can respectfully. Be in dialogue and in humility about somebody. Else's culture. If that makes sense.

Taylor

Absolutely. I think that that's. Really meaningful, like. Just in terms of like white culture and white identity. I think that that that's. Maybe the harm that. White supremacy has even done to white people. Is that. There's this homogenization, and then you don't really feel like you have a, a connection or a root system to anything. And too, I wager that probably

Josie

affects other. Folks too, that are pressured to adopt. A white culture or there's a lot in terms of what's it called? Assimilation.

Taylor

Right, right. Absolutely. And I think that that's important. Because, you know, I, so I come from a. A very diverse background. I I'm. Multi Rachel multiracial, multicultural. One side of my family actually came here. Escaping the Irish. Potato famine. Mm-hmm. And it was not easy for them to integrate into this culture. Either. So. There's there's a lot that can be learned about all immigrants, you know, especially European immigrants and what, what your people have had to go through in terms of assimilating and homogenizing into this. American white culture. It's sort of a shared and it's.

Josie

Yeah, those of us that are intro this from a dominant position that can almost be a temporary position and, and something that hasn't been there's so much complexities questions that I think we all get to be a part of digesting in sometimes two, like everybody that's accessing this. Program like it's that you are maybe perspective occupational therapy student or a clinician. We've been able to really get that dominant position on many different pyramids and tiers. That's something that we care with that carry with us. To reflect on. So this is, I think, work for all of us to digest what it means to be part of a social culture. That really reinforces hierarchies of dominance. Yeah. And that we don't get out of it just because we fit an image. Of again, that victim perpetrator. Triangle mm-hmm, which is not say it's not valid. Right, but that we need to kind of work together to dissect and inquire about that and find. Opportunities for agency mm-hmm where we're outside of a system where somebody is necessarily. Below us. So I think that's something too that I, I wanna cultivate a space that just, you know, just because you're entering this space with an identity politics of being a, a white person from the Midwest or. A person of color from an urban environment or a new immigrant, we all have. Grounds to be dissecting this work with it. Curious. And open mind to how. All of us could be playing those roles in different circumstances. And that can shift. Across the environments that we enter. I think we all kind of know that as consumers of mental health services and consumers of healthcare services. In one moment, you know, where the gatekeeper that has the degree and that we are potentially, you know, imposing a harmful belief system on someone. And the next moment you're walking into the clinic. As a consumer of healthcare services interacting with the same maybe invalidating experience. So in that you're the same human mm-hmm, but you're shifting context. Mm-hmm and all that's valid and worthy of inquiry and dialogue and discussion about.

Taylor

Absolutely. Yeah, I think it's. You know, it's my hope that. People could enter a space like this with some openness. And so possibilities that they hadn't expected and. And also to, yeah, take a look at what role you feel like you're playing when you first started group and then see if you wanna try a change and play a different role.

Josie

Have you talked about in your groups too. I imagine that this is something that your programs would maybe endorse or to play around with too, is, is as we get the invitation, maybe through more of this social science tos blends, too, to let the system be the villain. Yes. And let some of the structures that have been put into place that yes, we are necessarily a part of, as part of the social ecosystem that we're in. Globally. I guess we somewhat get some permission to let the structures and the institutions and the patterns. To be it's better to let that be the scapegoat and the bad night. that if you find that it's going out on people and individual persons in a way, that's almost a sign that our analysis is getting farther away from. Really, it just seems more constructive. We can get to a point of seeing how the whole ecosystem is producing patterns that are harming people.

Taylor

Absolutely. I think that that's. Really valuable. And it, it actually kind of takes me into like, Internal family systems and how. We will look at internally. People have a perpetrator, a villain, and a savior within. And we wanna try to see if there's value. We wanna create space for valuing all those parts. Because they all have really important knowledge that they're bringing to the table really important perspectives. And so if we can approach a group like this, with that openness, to all these different. Roles that people could play in the group, even the villain.

Josie

Yeah, so maybe we just need to own mm-hmm our like maybe potential Disney villain. Sometimes that being the instigator and being the propagator, we're also bringing some visibility of where there could be pain in assist system and that you really in is helpful. In a repair process, which occupational science, you know, occupational therapy and being a licensed marriage and family health counselor. Right. We're we're signing up to try to be these agents that can constructively. Mediate yes. Experiences that can feel better for the people that were connected to. Right.

So. That's a good thing to know about that. Maybe we don't wanna enable the perpetrator or. Have these things, maybe it's a nuanced question, but. The instigators part of our solution, whether we like it or not. That it sounds like if we just cut out the villain. It, it, we're not gonna get the solution that we need. So we actually, everybody needs to be welcome to this puzzle if we're going to actually solve it and put it into a different form for everybody.

Taylor

Right. I love that, you know, I think like, It might be even interesting in a group. Like if you could. Have some kind of exploration around, okay, what roles are everybody playing? And what let's everybody individually identify the pros and cons of each of those roles. And what are you learning from those.

Josie

So that's a great idea. And maybe that's something that we can play around with in this group. And I know Taylor, I think you're interested too, that this is the first course on the evolve living network. But we wanna kind of do more intentional interdisciplinary partnerships and building relationships. So even if that doesn't happen in this space, maybe that's something we can play around with in the future course on this platform. But that's I think a great Infor. For all of us in going into this learning is also viewing. This information and, and think about it putting on different role, play hats, different uniforms of how you would see this information from different vantage points. And then maybe like as a scientist, too. If you're trying to see it from a different perspective. Go look for evidence. See how, you know, what are they talking about on YouTube from that perspective? What sort of dramatic are poet. Poetry has been written from that perspective and maybe see how close your hypothesis was to accuracy. And maybe if you think, oh, well this role views, these things this way, maybe intentionally look for somebody that also has that role that has a completely different take on it's. Like, I think often if. We're open to the information often this data sort of contradicts

itself. Yeah. Especially with culture. There's no such thing. You know, in my family lineage. We all share the same ancestry. We say we share a lot of the same geographic cultural context. But just about any family system. I think if you go into it, there's not a lot of homogeny right. It all kind of impacts everybody differently. And I think we have to understand that that's part of living when a human. Human social system is there's just a lot of diversity.

Taylor

 Yes. Most definitely. And, and in a sense, like, I, I often wonder why. We wouldn't think about education as celebrating diversity, cuz. Are aren't we getting educated to learn about. The world. And all different types of perspectives.

Josie

We were gonna create some inroads to de institutionalizing some of what this, where this can take place. Cause I think a lot of that does come from the systems that education tends to take place in. And I think thats giving ourselves permission to play with you guys get to be a. Part of this, because this is having outside of this loosely affiliated with academia, but eventually we wanna take this learning outside of academia. And playing with this notion about what it means to be a lifelong learner. And a critical consumer as a occupational therapist and a constructive consumer of how we can build relationships for new systems. We're gonna have to take this learning outside of these institutions that tend to fix us. Yeah into roles that are usually hurtful to everyone involved. So feel free to in this, to play with different roles. And have some grace with each other as that comes up. And connect to some of the resources and suggestions below, but do know that you're signing up for a bit of an adventure in this program. And we're gonna look in Lynn towards repair. There's not a right and running answer in this group. Unfortunately, if you need that for safety. This might not be the safest learning environment, but we do want it to be hopefully an enjoyable and constructive one for you. Mm-hmm and I just wanna, if, if you don't have any, do you have any final thoughts or anything? Taylor, this feeling like a natural. Segue point. So we'll include the resources below. From this and just know that with any topics that we, this is just the tip of the iceberg, if there is one, and we hope that it inspires you to exploring and looking under different rocks and different pebbles of what you can discover. And even in what you can contribute. All that's already been put forward and published and is official on these topics. Ever evolving and you have an empowered place. Within the unfolding of this educational environment. So I want you to feel empowered, to explore and discover new things that maybe we don't know yet.

Taylor

 I think that's well said, and I, I I'm appreciating being part of this and I hope that it gets underway really. On a good note. Well, thank you for being part of walking into this discussion.

Josie

 And I think that we both can affirm that joining in experimental learning communities. As much as it's also been a tough learning experience to learn that way, it has been one. That I think has helped us see, you know, would you say that because even going from. Evergreen and some of the more nontraditional schools that you have, you probably have a broader. View of what's possible as a therapist than maybe those even that went through more traditional. Context?

Taylor

I think so. Yeah. It, I, I appreciate the fact that. Evergreen really. Focus on. Not lo not. Making your scope too rigid as far as what information you can learn and dabble in. And I think people who go into specialized fields can sometimes get very like limited. And I love just being able to expand and just learn as much as possible about all kinds of different topics. And. I think that that's the value of, of doing this type of learning.

Josie

And perfect at it. But I wanna say I will probably credit going through an interdisciplinary learning experience of kind of. Learning maybe how to be respectful from different. Different traditions of knowledge, cuz I don't think I'm always been perfect or done it diligently, but like it's helpful if you can learn enough. About a different field or a background. To speak with folks that are ambassadors of that in a way that. You know, it honors the investment that they put into it. It's kind of hard to be respectful of a culture that you don't know anything about.

Taylor

 Totally.

Josie

And it's almost almost  through making. Mistakes and being that Vic being that perpetrator, you know, I, I can certainly say that, you know, I have made mistakes as an ambassador of science in the social sciences and being, you know, Particularly like a cis-gendered female. In projecting some of my roles onto other communities. Mm-hmm I've also just learned how. By making mistakes by being. By being open to enter that dialogue and learn about different perspectives that will. Naturally over time trend towards humanizing and being respectful of those different fields of inquiry and understanding.

Josie

Hello everyone. Thank you so much for joining us on this discussion. I wanted to guide you briefly in how you can access and exercise on the F Coach platform to sort of join us in reflecting on this discussion today. Um, underneath this discussion, underneath the slides, you'll see a link. With a box that has a little squiggly line on top of it that says the disorienting Dilemma toolkit reflection question.

This is an UP coach smart worksheet, which allows, um, any of your responses and these exercises to be really track tracked just in relation to your profile so that it automatically. You know, attracts your engagement, these exercises to minimize the work of, um, you know, putting together that MD C O T certificate as you just sort of complete the exercises on the platform.

That's really all you need to do, and that will automatically be tracked towards those experiment. Those experience points that will accumulate for your B C O T certificate. So when you first see this, there will be a red question mark and a little swivel sign. If you click on those, it'll assign the worksheet to your account and then you can also access it again from the central page more towards the bottom of our kind of our, our learning.

If you are somebody that prefers to reflect just really on your own, maybe you prefer to hand write it. There's also a link to these reflective questions in a Google Doc format that you can print from your computer at home and just make the space as wide as you want to write into, or you can type on your own and just kind of head back here and enter, um, the amount of time you.

Did in this personal reflection, um, really I'm the only one that has access on the back end that could possibly see your responses here. Um, so we wanna encourage you to really reflect on your past roles and your learning and patterns, what it means to experiment with inhabiting new roles on this platform.

Um, there's links to resources about hyper arousal, the zone of tolerance, the victim. Rescuer perpetrator, triangle, as well as scapegoating. I think there's so much fodder to reflect on the rules that this has played in our discourse, our discussion, maybe past learning environments and what it means to imagine them a little bit differently.

Um, I thought I might read some of these questions out loud for those of you that are, Listen, so you. Start pondering, um, your own reflections. So for example, what roles, uh, have I noticed in my past learning experiences that I tend to inhabit? Maybe the top dog, the underdog, the observer, the debater, the high performer, the devil's advocate in the context of building a new experimental learning community.

How might it play around with trying out new rules and approaches to learning? What are signs that I'm entering a hyper arousal state? What three strategies can I go to to support my nervous system and wellbeing when I notice I'm in a hyper arousal state? How have I had past experiences falling into the bur victim, perpetrator, rescuer triangle?

How did it feel to be involved in that cycle? How can we play with relating to the cycle differently when we notice it happen? What are signs that scapegoating is starting to take place in a community? What can we do to address this pattern and heal, to restore balance, and improve the quality of our problem solving and our inquiry together?

What strategies might we consider in opening the question of shaping our group norms and agreements to support and inclusive environment of learning and play while navigating disorienting dilemmas together and separately? What does it look like to work towards an inclusive, non-hierarchical learning experience and community?

Often the needs for inclusion, safety, and accessibility of one person or group can directly conflict with the needs for inclusion, safety, and accessibility for another person in our group. What strategies can we use to mindfully navigate this reality while still seeking to cultivate inclusive and safe spaces for meaningful online learning?

And how much time did you spend on this reflection? Um, also linked below is an opportunity to share your thoughts and resources and discussion together on the Up Coach disorienting dilemma group support forum associated with this lesson and the orientation module. Um, I'll definitely get some posts started there that we can start thinking about how we can support each other through these disorienting dilemmas, Maybe some of the past disorienting dilemmas that we've had, or examples of disorienting dilemmas.

And you can share what's been useful to. Thank you so much for joining this discussion today.